There are those that feel like they are "betraying" there religion if they are curious about the spiritual paths that some take.

Do you believe that we are betraying our religion by taking the spiritual path and practicing magik?

Depends on the religion. I've been working with muslim friend of mine & he was worried about betraying his god, though we found out Islam supports spiritual advancment =p

I always find myself going "around" religion..

I believe that it does not matter what religion you are from.

I also believe that you are NOT betraying your god by practicing on your abilities or doing magik......etc.

"It seems to me" that

Religion often betrays its members by doing what it is 'meant' to - unite people under one belief system. Individuals are limited in their growth by the rules of their religion's social network, ultimately by the leaders who must consider the best good for all, and who must be fair. And in this sense, its not really the religion at fault, but the structuring of it, which makes people feel compelled to act 'morally correctly' at the expense of taking care of their own needs. The idea of an individual 'betraying religion' comes more from the idea of an individual becoming ostracized or outcast for being strong enough to act according to their own needs, as they are responsible for their own soul, and only they can judge what is best for development and growth.

Do we betray the religion, do we betray 'God,' in seeking truth outside of a single frame of understanding? I think the all important question is, 'Are we betraying ourselves, are we betraying our own -individual- morality? That is something that each must decide on their own.

I don't actually believe that religion betrays its members.....but at times its members betrays us.

People react in such a negative way to people that take the time to see "beyond".If you even mention wicca or magik people look at you in such a negative way.

Except from that I agree with everything that you stated in your post.

I would have to agree. Its the person, individual, or member that betrays themself by subscribing to religion -permanently. The religion is only a thing. If the person puts it above themself, and blocks out what lies beyond, then they limit their potential by creating a roof over their head. Sometimes a religion can be very helpful for creating structure/shelter and often provides a healthy environment and therefore helps growth. But it can only be taken so far, to the point where the creators of the religion left off- where one must decide to trust in oneself, which is the only thing we can ever truly know, or trust in religion, which would be a betrayal of self. Our 'self' is the window thru which our energies meet all others; if we don't allow ourselves to grow beyond, then we might as well be dead...which I suppose is why a lot of religions expect messiahs.

i am not going to betray my religion because i always come back i ll wander off because i want to learn what makes different religions tick what makes people want to beleive in them even when they say to hate something different i just like to learn.

I really think that no one at all betrays their religion.
People these days are so focused on telling others that they are betraying their religion when they should be focusing on themselves.

It also gets me really upset that others judge when you say that you are into magik,wicca etc.

I honestly believe we should just scrap religion all together. There is nothing more evil than religion period.

My first biggest issue with religion is, in its basic form, it's no more than some crazy asshole with an AK47. It basically controls a person through fear, "Do as i say or burn in hell!". The more absent minded person will weigh their options with a train of thought similar to "Hmm. Believe in God, or Burn in all agony for the rest of eternity... Well, my minds made up." - Seriosuly? Can anyone show me how religion is different to a guy holding a gun?.

My second biggest issue is i can't think of something more people have died over? I bet you can't name even 10 wars that HAVN'T, in some way shape or form, had a God at the root of it all. Religious war is just about who has the best imaginary friend.

Third of all, Religion makes people stupid. A recent study in America showed that about 48-50% of people don't believe in evolution... Which is like.... Half. Then ontop of that 50 odd percent, a further 38-40% of Americans believe that a higher power is responsible FOR evolution. Leaving a Veerrryyyy small percentage of Americans who are right.

Though what i find most interesting is that all of these Americans seem to debate Evolution in the same terms that the 'Inteligent Desgine Movement' uses in the high courts of America to try & sneak the psydo science into american highschools, and that defence is always "But Evolution Is only a Theory!!"... Which is true, yeah it is. But i think it's good that they say this - It gives you hope, doesn't it? That maybe they feel the same way about, i dunno, the theory of gravity?... And they might just float the fuck away.

Kevern you make a very good point.

But we need religion in our lives.Atleast that is what I believe...even though at times we might fight between each other because of our beliefs we still need it.

Why? Can you show me just one example in the history of the world of a single religious person who has been able to prove either logically or empirically the existence of a higher power or that he or she has any consciousness or interest in the human race - or ability to punish or reward humans for there moral choices or that there is any reason - other than fear - to believe in any version of an afterlife?

Well I'm going to take me for an example.

Religion has helped me "organize" my life.It has given me hope!I bet it does the same to others.

Even though at times we fight between each other because of our beliefs....deep inside religion helps us all.

Martyr has religion ever given you hope?
(you don't have to answer the question if you think its to personal)

*Notes the irony of my name, a Martyr is someone who is prosecuted for their beliefs*

No, Religion doesn't give me hope - It infact, makes me ill. Unlike most of the believers, in urmm - we'll use christianity for now - I actually know what it's about it - I've read the bible =O and it's pretty sick.

For example, Ella - According to God, If i rape you & you're a virgin - I owe your dad/owner 50 peices of silver and you will probably get killed if i raped you in a public place. If you weren't a virgin you're worth pretty much fuck all =)

Not enough? How about that bible story where God tells a few of his followers to go into a nearby village, rape the woman & kill the men. (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

The bible is full of these wonderful stories =D

I am sorry to hear that religion has not given you hope.

It depends on how you look at reiligion.....I myself don't believe some of the facts that are in the bible or what others say..because that is what they BELIEVE.
I believe in what I believe.......does it make sense what I am trying to say?

Ella, If you need to believe in something - Believe in yourself, because at the end of the day you are the only thing you really have. Some devine entity in the sky wont make your life better, nor will your belief in the devine entity.

You will always be your biggest help & your most rewarding friend. Please don't betray yourself by believing that some jackass in the sky will shine during your darkest hours - Only you will find your way out of the abyss, and if you keep looking up in search of the light, you'll remain lost forever.

I am not saying that I believe that someone in the sky (god) will help me through the hardest times..but actually believing in him gives me hope at times.

I believe in myself and I know that me,myself and I can complete everything that comes across my path.

I know that I am the only one that can make my life better and that I am the only one that can change the direction where im going.

What I am trying to say that at times.... its good to believe in religion because it gives people hope.

Just to make it clear....I am a very spiritual person.

Those who believe in themselves require no hope, as they already know what the out come will be

Even those who believe in themselves need hope...because at times you might give up on yourself.

To give up on yourself is to give up on life. That in-itself, is the end of all hope. Trust me I've been there. =)

Even now i can't always say it's going to be a better tomorrow, but i know that if i sit my ass hoping it is, nothing will get done. You must control yourself to control your destiny - You must ask yourself how can you change tomorrow, if you can't change today.

I've lost some of the best things that have ever happend to me because all i did was hope. Sometimes you just have to stand the fuck and fight. Fight for what you want, and once you have it fight until your dying breath to keep it. Hope, by itself, is never enough.

I have given up on myself many times......and I sometimes used hope to help me recover!

I am also terribly sorry that this has happened to you.

Your argument is valid, but flawed. Hope makes you believe there's a chance things will get better without you doing jack-shit to achieve it. Things might get better, but that's chance, not your hope. One day you'll hope like hell for something to change, and it wont, 'cuz all you did was hope =p

Our arguments are the same, it's just it sounds like you believe hope, by itself, is enough - I do not.

Hope is believing!
you believe in yourself.

For example.....before going to bed I can pray that tomorrow will be a better day.....I can hope that everything will be alright.

But I wont sit around just waiting for a miracle......I will do something about it and make my day better.

Hope is believing....and you believe in yourself!

you obtain hope from the belief in nothing - I don't get a feeling of hope from my belief that my actions will set in motion a change (whether it is good or bad) as i know this is what happens.

If i didn't know that this would happen, i would hope that it would & believe that it would because i would want it to be so.

Your original argument was that we need religion to preserve hope, because we need hope to continue living. I agree that hope is nice, but not a necessity to life.

As i stated before - To believe in yourself is to know, removing the need for hope.

Well Martyr this was a very good friendly debate.
You believe in what you believe I believe in what I believe...its pretty much simple!

No hard feelings?

It's a debate, not a war XD of coarse there's no hard feelings... But ya know... I was right.